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Search Results 0 to 49 of about 92 (some duplicates have been removed)
.c.o.r.n. stole the election from president obama. >> that's an eye opener. >> i wonder where they ever got that idea? >> you just have to wait and see what happens. >>> good to have you with us tonight, folks. thanks for watching. here is are the latest. republicans are at a stalemate with the white house for debt negotiations. republicans really only have two options now, bad and worse. "the new york times" is the latest outlet to report on senior republican leaders who are ready to strike a deal. they want to push off negotiations until the debt ceiling vote next year. president obama won't have it. the president is attacking the only leverage republicans have left. the president spoke to a group of ceos today and said that he will not negotiate if debt ceiling is going to be used as a hostage. >> i have to just tell you, that is a bad strategy for america, it is a bad strategy for your businesses, and it is not a game that i will play. so i want to send a very clear message to people here. we are not going to play that game next year. if congress in any way suggests that they're going t
won the election on that premise. but speaker boehner he seemses to have forgotten that. >> they must have forgot and then republicans continue to hold the majority in the house. but, you know, the president's idea of a negotiation is, roll over and do what i ask. we need to find common ground and we need to find it quickly. >> speaker boehner claimses he's looking for common ground. but right now he's not even in the right ballpark. his problem is that the political ground has shifted for him and his tea partyiers. joining me now is michelle cottle, washington correspondent for "newsweek "and "the daily beast" and ezra cline who is a policy analyst. thank you both for coming on the show tonight. >> thank you. >> thanks, rev. >> michelle, let me start with you. the president ran on raising taxes on the rich and he won on that premise. why didn't the gop get the message? >> oh, they got the message but this is high posturing season. they have to get in there and be as intransident as they possibly can. the president has said that he wants tax rates for the wealthy on the table. so they
pounding in the election, is their repeated attempts to reach out to the women folk. [ laughter ] >> stephanie: somebody in the republican party pointed out that mitt romney won white women. so that's proof that they don't have a chick problem. >> is that true? >> stephanie: yeah six points worse among -- what do you call -- romney's performance among white women was six points worse than among white men. but he technically did win white women. >> not this white woman. not the white woman i speak with. [ laughter ] >> stephanie: yes, the president won women by double digits. but, yes, the white women apparently love that mittens. >> hum. >> stephanie: here she is in the current news jacki schechner. >> good morning, everybody. the president and vice president are scheduled to meet with state governors at the white house today just after 10:00 am eastern to talk about ways to balance the budget then at 12:30 the president's first post-election interrue. anticipate plenty of discussion about the counteroffer on the fiscal cliff. and the gop would avoid toxin cre
, that pretty well describes your party after the shellacking you got in the election. some members of your party are further along in the stages of grief but the republicans all seem to fall somewhere along that spectrum. let's take a look. so first there's denial. as in everything's fine! carry on. none of this is really happening! that's where the majority of the republicans, at least in congress are. but we should cut them a little slack. afterall everybody from peggy noonan to karl rove assured them they would be in the white house by this time so they're understandably shock and distressed and poor speaker john boehner is hopelessly stuck in that stage. his is, of course, willful denial. a stubborn refusal to recognize reality are. but it is denial nonetheless. today, he dug in his heels. he refused to budge. he released a statement blaming the president for the impasse saying "we don't have time for the president to continue shifting the goalposts. we need to solve this problem." in fact, his approach all a
the republicans realize the president did win the election? >> well, certainly some of the republicans have caught on and also realize they are just on the wrong side of the majority of americans by saying that they are going to go to the mat. they are going to fight to the finish. they are willing to bring the economy down to fight for the top 2%? really? this is not going to help them. if they want to win in any future election, they are taking the wrong positions. some republicans are definitely coming around to that conclusion. >> congresswoman jan schakowsky and margie omero, thank you both for your time tonight. >>> senator tom hawken joins us next. >>> plus, the grand old party gets a grand old makeover. wait until you hear what paul ryan is saying about the 47%. >>> the one and only rosie perez is in the house and i just learned today we have something in common. you're watching "politicsnation" on msnbc. >>> get this, earlier today mitt romney was spotted on a costco shopping spree. that's right. he ended up buying 14 costcos. ♪ [ male announcer ] jill and her mouth have lived a great l
crazy. and george bush lost re-election. since then the party's been committed to never compromising on the tax issue, no matter the deficit. no congressional republican has voted for an increase in taxes since 1990. think about it. for nearly a quarter of a century, no new income taxes. in the current congress, 236 house republicans vowed never to raise taxes. 40 gop senators also kept that pledge. even president george w. bush, the man who got us into two wars we didn't pay for. the president who exploded our deficit. he insisted the solution to our problems were more tax cuts. president clinton handed him a $236 billion surplus. a surplus. and left office with a $1.2 trillion deficit. but he just had to keep those tax cuts coming, but something remarkable may be happening in our politics. we're on the verge of something big. after decades of silliness, this lock-step republican fantasy that has hurt our country, president obama is close to breaking the gop tax unity. >> unfortunately, the speaker's proposal right now is still out of balance. you know, he talks, for example, about
years answering the same question. but right after the election, we sent a plan to the president where we gave revenues but looking for spending cuts. and he took three weeks to come back to us. he has gone on still on the campaign trail, still working through. but you have to understand, republicans have not waited to solve this problem and sat back. in the summer, we passed a bill that froze the rates, and passed it. it sat in the senate. we believe we want to solve this problem. we think this is our moment. this is our time. >> is the moment -- does it come down to this, where you would say, look, we'll give you higher marginal tax rates if we get something significant on spending, medicare, in return? >> it doesn't solve the problem. if the president is asking for higher ratings, he is asking for more revenue. most economists agree the best way to get that is through closing special loopholes. and when you close those, it makes a fair tax process. so people invest on the return, not invest based upon what the irs says. >> senator durbin, the opening position, as i sort of gleaned i
u.s. senate. >> that's right. going into the senate elections there is far more democratic up for re-election in 2014 than republicans. they look nervous about what the senate outcome is going to be. obviously, they have a majority, next month we'll see 55 senates be added. it will be 55 for the democratic caucus. they don't want to loss that majority. i think we'll see a lot of money go there. obviously, democrats would like to gain the house joirt. it looks like it will be a climb but i think we'll see a lot of money go towards the races. >> there is not a lot of competition for the money because they are not bound by the same campaign rules. they can take corporate cash, they can take six figure checks. there is a little bit oaf easing of pressure on the governors. i think you're going to see some of these super pacs that played in the previous races and now in the federal races turn their attention to the key states. >> this is where the democrats have their opportunities in 2014. >> what did you learn today? >> i learned that jerry brown is going to run for re-election. h
of refers appear to have forgotten something happened in november 2012 called a presidential election. >> right. it was an election in which president obama, unprecedented for a democrat, actually ran on a platform of raising taxes. he said, i'm going to raise taxes on the top 2% and he was re-elected resoundingly with it. to what ron said, if it's only $14 trillion, what's the big deal, go ahead and let the rich pay it? that's number one. number two, the other thing that's been exposed and what's true, what's always been true about conservativism is that the core principle is the rich don't pay too much, they pay too little. when they say things like broaden the tax base, they think it's a moral hazard to have a progressive tax code. you want a flatter tax code for those with less money pay more into the system. republicans have tried to talk around that because that's anç unpopular thing to tell your tea party base, middle class people, no, we think lower income people and middle income people should pay more. but when we strip away all the rhetoric about job creators and the rest
for retail, and it has taken us almost a month since the election for the president to put out what everybody already knew he wanted, so what -- >> the first meeting, the president laid outlet the rates go back up. the assumption that simpson-bowles had, the assumption that gang of six hilary clintons and said to our republican colleagues give us back what you want for a down payment. we're not going to solve all of this by the end of the year. then they said no, give us more details. through secretary geithner, they laid out more detail. >> in terms of new details, and it's taken so long. >> it's also incumbent on the president to realize that this is a conversation that he has to have not just with washington but the rest of the country. bringing in business leaders, bringing in small business leaders, going out across the country. one reason i think why this time it's going to be different from the failures of the past, the debt ceiling debacle, the failure of the super committee, is i think the american people and particularly the american business community, realize what's at stake, and
. president, after a status quo election, and if you talk to folks at the white house, they don't view it as a status quo election. they thought what they had was a huge victory, and they are just -- if you're flying at 35,000 feet, you see the difference between both of them here is babe e boehner is like our margins in the house, you know, we still have a sense of clout. democrats are saying we increased our clout. this offer is meant by boehner to say the first one from geithner was the white house's position was the white house budget. we could have come back with the house gop budget. we're trying to do something that's middle ground. but the white house does not believe it was a status quo election. they believe they were handed a resounding victory. >> absolutely. nbc's luke russert. thanks so much. let's get right to our panel now. msnbc contributor ari melber is with me in the studio, and democratic strategist julian epstein joins us from washington. speaker boehner today hold reporters the president is in la la land. then he presents a counteroffer based on the mythical dynam
up today senator sherrod brown, big winner for re-election in ohio even though the super pac spent billions of dollars against him. well maybe not billions but millions and millions against him. sherrod brown is going to tell us how he did it. tuesdays, think progress igor volsky from think progress here with us later in this hour. lynn sweet washington bureau chief for the "chicago sun-times" as a "friend of bill." lots of fun coming up. lots of important stuff to talk about including a bogus proposal by john boehner yesterday. on the fiscal cliff. but first... >> announcer: this is the "full court press." >> on this tuesday other headlines making news, the most eagerly awaited pregnancy in recent times was announced yesterday. duchess kate middleton pregnant with what would be the third in line to the british throne. child of prince william. he and kate have been married for 19 months. kate was admitted to the hospital yesterday suffering from acute morning sickness. she needed extra hydration and nutr
wants. >> yeah. >> stephanie: serious plan. they are like they won the election. >> it is totally farfetched and they are like i don't understand why he doesn't want it. >> stephanie: all right. here she is, jacki schechner in the current news. >> good morning. we already know that ashley judd can show a much wider range of emotion that some. she has been taking steps to assess her options when it comes to running for office. she is doing opposition research on herself to see where she might be most vulnerable. mcconnell will be running for his sixth term another option is to run against senator rand powell in 2016. there is a briefings tomorrow on the september 11th attack on our console consoleate attack in benghazi they the talking points were watered down by the cia. it said the notes did contain reference to al-qaeda but the cia took it off. elizabeth warren has won a spot on the banking committee. sources are also saying that senator joe mansion will have a seat on the panel as well. that's good news. we're back after the break. stay with us. ♪ to me all the
's one thing. but we're not going to go after seeing the president win this election, we won the white house, turn right around and undermine the people who helped put us there. >> you know, it is interesting. the older voters did vote republican and medicare was out there. i mean, paul ryan budget was there. and the older voters went for governor romney. >> remember,, he won with fewer voters. the republican performance was better than it was four years ago. the reality is, nobody can look at this budget and think that if you don't reform entitlements you can balance it. >> but it's a matter of where do you balance it? do you balance it on the backs on the people who can least afford it? >> but to get a deal, we have a divided government. the president won. we can argue about whether it's a mandate. there will have to be compromise. $16 trillion debt. trillion a year deficit. you're not going to solve all that with tax increases and cutting discretionary programs. we have to fix the intitlement programs. we can talk about how we do it. >> you have to be specific, steve. because when y
area of national defense. and the election was nearly a month ago, but many states are still tallying their ballots. the united states election project is gathering some of that data and as found 28 states are reporting their official and final results. according to that samples size 59% of eligible voters cast their ballots this november and in nevada .6% voted for none of the above in the presidential race. >> that's the only state allowing that option. be right back. alright, in 15 minutes we're going to do the young turks. i think the number one thing that viewers like about the young turks is that we're honest. they know that i'm not bs'ing them with some hidden agenda, actually supporting one party or the other. when the democrats are wrong, they know that i'm going to be the first one to call them out. they can question whether i'm right, but i think that the audience gets that this guy, to the best of his ability, is trying to look out for us. [ ♪ theme ♪ ] [ music ] >> broadcasting across the nation, on your radio and on current tv this is "the b
of hirs campaign. he thinks he won it. >> president obama has been re-elected. >> to get a deal done, you're going to have to have higher tax rates on the top 2%. >> the one thing the republicans have going for them is they're leaning on erskine bowles. >> i heard what you were saying. you know nothing of my work. you mean my whole fallacy is wrong. >> i'm happy to be flexible. i recognize i'm not going to get 100%. ♪ >> it certainly 'tis the season and whether you're counting the days to the fiscal cliff, the debt ceiling, christmas day, or judgment day, there's much to do and not much time to do it. as for us, we're counting down the minutes to house speaker john boehner who will be lighting the capitol christmas tree 234 just about an hour. if you're among the wealthiest of americans, then, boy, does boehner have a gift wrapped for you. in republicans' counteroffer to avert the fiscal cliff, the rich get to keep their bush era tax cuts, even as the boehner budget slashes $1.2 trillion in spending, half of it from medicare, medicaid, and other social programs. it is a lump of coal del
as far as that road that is concerned whether it is the road map to elections as the ambassador was speaking to or a road map for the negotiations between the various disaffected elements in the north of bahrain to renounce violence and engage in an negotiations process. obviously if we get to a point of elections being held and being able to resume assistance with the forces, that will be an important step forward for the united states to be able to directly help the malian forces in addition to other contributing countries. european union, france, others have already begun to really engage with the malian forces, so it isn't as if there is an abstinence of support for them in the intervening period. >> what lessons have we learned, if i might, ms. dory and mr. gast, i think the mission just celebrated the 50th anniversary. we were actively engaged in the training a good thing as a part of the very probably democracy support and in trying to create and sustain a cultural democracy what lessons are there that we might learn going forward about political failures and more on dome
in massachusetts, linda lackl, a twice-elected governor of hawaii, running for the senate, and other wilson in new mexico, who were good statewide candidates with good credentials who lost for one reason, they had (r) next to their name. this is an albatross. this is a problem for republicans to deal with, and the president knows he has an advantage and the republicans have to get beyond this is a day are going to become competitive. >> any wiggle room in the house, charles? >> i don't understand when colby says for the president raising rates is a matter of principle. there was no principle involved. obama himself said at a briefing in july 2011 press conference that you can raise the $1.20 trillion that he wanted at the time without raising rates, by doing it by eliminating deductions and exclusions, which is the more rational way. obama's, and debt reduction commission had recommended that you raise tens of revenue for the federal government, you do tax reform, and you actually lower rates while you expand the base, and the reason is that if you raise rates, you injure economic expansion, if yo
out saying oh, barack obama, he bought votes, i would have won the election if he wouldn't have bought the votes. that's the logo of a guy who just makes excuses. >> so between the change of heart and all the interviews he's doing and the aspiring acting career, some people are saying that it's possible, just possible, that eric is doing all of this just to get attention. >> they couldn't be more correct. of course. who gets a tattoo on their face and isn't looking for attention? >> very thought provoking although perhaps not universally true. like maybe if somebody got a tattoo on their face that said i'm shy. in any event, if it was attention he was looking for, he definitely got it although the romney tattoo will soon fade into nothing but a cheeky memory, eric's place on the "ridiculist," that i promise you, is permanent. that does it for us. see you again one hour from now. erin burnett's "outfront" starts now. >>> 28 days away, what does it take for a deal? and the use of chemical weapons will bring an immediate reaction from the community. our panel, we'll ask them if the
that say we're putting revenue on the table, the american people did that when they elected, you know, the president and a democratic senate again. again, they have to agree to a deal or tax rates on everybody go up. i think we should do everything we can to avoid that for as many people as we possibly can. >> so far, four house gop members, as we said, john boehner has booted them from key committees for going against leadership. you're obviously the deputy whip. you are part of leadership. you have challenged john boehner. i mean, what you put out there, it may sound -- may sound very normal and calm and compromise-filled to many. but perhaps to him, it's a little bit of a slap in the face. have you talked to him about it directly? >> yeah, of course. i mean, look, i deal with the speaker on a regular basis. and he knows, look, i'm never going to undercut him and he knows when the tough votes come, and they're going to come, that i'll be there to try and support him and help him. so he's not going to scold me because i offered in private, you know, my advice that was solicited and t
the presidential election. no one can explain it because you can't do it. >> jay carney says the speaker's plans raises more questions than answers. >> we don't know who pays. we don't know what we're talking about in terms of actual legislation to increase revenues. it's magic beans and fairy dust. >> john boehner's heavy-handed approach to leadership, boehner and the republican steering committee kicked four republican congressmen out of their committee seats for voting against party leadership in the past. but boehner finds himself in an increasingly weak position. senate minority leader mitch mcconnell refused to take a position on boehner's debt plan today. >> i have no particular observation other than i commend the house leadership for trying to move. the process along and getting to a point where hopefully we can have a real discussion. >> house democrats are cranking up the pressure. tim walsh of minnesota introduced a discharge petition on the middle class tax cuts in the house. if it gets 218 signatures, it would get a floor vote before the end of the month. >> this is an issue that w
've inaugurated the election of 2012, positioning has begun for election 2016. there was former florida governor jeb bush, just this week making political reporters salivate by getting about his close to the white house as he could without actually being in it. he met with a group of former staffers at a hotel on pennsylvania avenue giving a smile and a coy response when asked about his plans to one day vie to occupy the presidential mansion just up the block. then just two saturdays ago, florida senator marco rubio was showing a little leg in iowa showing this early nominating state where he broke a fundraising record for the governor there. on tuesday night, this week, rubio and another potential gop heir apparent, congressman paul ryan are looking to get their political weight up by laying out their respective road maps for the jack kemp foundation. republicans ready to turn the page are introducing their new class of hopefuls, nice and early. it's a big class. a herd if you will of elephants stampeding toward 2016. there are those whose ethnic heritage alone will help to put a new face on th
, but it's worth pointing out how far the democrats have moved since the election it to where they are today. they left that rush limbaugh thinking far behind. >> it's a good thing, because rush limbaugh is nowhere near the mainstream of the american people. i'm also worried about the defense cuts. i think we need to make the cuts. we haven't cut the defense budget much in the last 30 years. they just ordered new uniforms for their chauffeurs for the top brass. you know, this is going to be a lost opportunity if there's too much compromising going on here. i'm going to stick to my position we'd be off going over the cliff, the curb. it's a slope and not a cliff. i take krystal's point as a good point. you have to pick your time. the europeans are done too much with austerity. i think we can afford to do this, and we ought to make the down payment. the cliff doesn't fix the deficit, but it really does make a downpayment and gets defense cuts for the first time. you know damn well the defense won't get cut ifç they make a deal on this. >> in the "new york post" today a conserv
the election. >> exactly. these are savings, about a third of which were reducing the subsidy for insurance companies providing medicare advantage programs and the rest of them pretty much cut to providers and we didn't reduce services. we expanded some while leaving money over the long term and the cbo said the affordable care act will save $1.2 trillion. again, we need to be careful what we do with the medicare portion of the social safety net because we've actually made some significant changes that have yet to play out. >> all right. thank you very much, sir. we greatly appreciate your time. >> my pleasure. >> now, ab stoddard, erin mcpike and keith boykin. a.b. let's start with you. let's read what senator demint and senator paul had to say about the proposal of boehner and the republicans. the $800 billion tax hike will destroy american jobs. if neither party leadership puts forward a serious plan, we should end this charade. ran paul says, one party proposes $800 billion in tax increases to counter them and continue to be the low tax small government party. the other party leadership
the establishment. fed up after the republican party's loss in the election. some members of the gop are pushing former congressman j.c. watts to run for chairman. but a lot of people in the party don't seem too hot on the idea. a leader tells our peter hamby he had no prayer. roland martin warns that responses like that could backfire. he writes even if they choose not to vote for watts, if he decides to even seek the job, it is his skin color and perspective. that is strl to the central to the gop having any sort of presidential future. "out front" tonight, c.j. watts. let me ask you point blank, what do you think about what roland martin had to say, what the party has to respond to you even considering running, thinking about race? >> well, erin, i don't necessarily believe that the answer is to take a black face and put him in the chairmanship at the rnc or female or hispanic or asian ornatetive americ nati. i think it's bigger than that. i think we have to surround ourselves, at the rnc and throughout the party, we have to understand diversity. diversity is not a bad word. i take a biblical
to college, keep a roof over their heads. that's the choice in this election. >> the administration is still asking you to send in stories about what being able to keep about $2,000 more a year means to you and your family. the president is planning to meet with state governors this week and the business roundtable, a big business lobbying group. this morning fiscal cliff negotiations appear to be at a stand still. treasury secretary tim geithner says the president's offer is unwavering. we're going to let tax rates go up for top earners and republicans will have to work with that reality. >> there is no responsible way we can govern this country with those low rates in place for future generations. those rates are going to have to go up. >> house speaker john boehner appears to be struggling now that the president and democrats are negotiating for a position of power. talking points memo points out republicans are used to getting 70% to 75% of what they ask for in these types of negotiations but now speaker boehner
and in his first post-election interview president obama again rejected the house republican counteroffer that is on the table. >> unfortunately the speaker's proposal right now is still out of balance. we're going to have to see the rates on the top 2% go up and we're not going to be able to get a deal without it. >> let's hope he sticks to it. >> g.o.p. leaders aren't only dealing with the president and congressional democrats they're dealing with a split within their own ranks. more conservative republicans don't want party leaders to compromise anymore than they think they already have. even though the republican plan offers up $800 billion in new taxes without upping tax rates at all tea party leaders say higher taxes shouldn't be in any form because it is not what republicans stand for. south carolina senator jim demint went so far as to call on supporters of his senate conservative fund to call senate republicans and ask them to oppose what he's calling the boehner tax hike. the looming question for re
. we talked about this before the election, andrea. the election was supposed to tell us something about what the american public wanted. president obama did win the election. you know, an event has happened as part of the many months where the public comes down on this. >> luke russert, john boehner did yesterday come out with their proposal, the house proposal. is that a nonstarter or move the ball a little bit? >> i would say it's a nonstarter for the white house, but it moves the ball a little bit in the sense it gives us an idea of what the house gop conference would be willing to accept and that is really to put it in place, caps, specific numbers, that could be worked on next year. essentially you're going to bank specific things the white house would give. perhaps an increase in the medicare age. perhaps a change in the cpi in terms of how social security is doled out. the idea that's what the plan would possibly look like. that was a movement more towards the center. as president obama said it's unacceptable. when i was walking over here i spoke to a senior republican sena
the fiscal cliff. right after the election wall street dropped 5% when everybody suddenly focused on the fiscal cliff and realized that this was a problem. but since then it's kind of bumped along at this sort of level. i don't think wall street is at all sanguine about the idea that if we went over the fiscal cliff, life would go on as we know it and everything would be fine. >> one of the things that was really interesting to me to bear out that point is ken conrad yesterday who's been so down, i mean, he's leaving the senate. he's done this for seven years. they can't produce deals. and yesterday when i interviewed him, joe, he said i think we're going to make this. i think the boehner offer had significant indicators that something here is going on, and they're going to come together. >> also, kent conrad, a guy -- i've loved him for a long time, deficit hawk. they haven't allowed him to put a budget out for years. he's growing frustrated. i'm sure he's going to be glad to leave. but i was surprised by that as well. you see also, sam stein, republicans are now starting to real
doesn't mean you have to work together on everything. and it also means that elections have consequences. now it's time for "the last word" with lawrence o'donnell. >>> tonight, jay carney's position in the white house secretary hall of fame is assured by what he said today in the white house press briefing room about the republicans' latest budget proposal. quote, it is magic beans and fairy dust. >> i'm worried about the fiscal cliff in the same way i'm worried about martians. >> fiscal cliff. >> fiscal whatever it is. >> is this a rerun? >> still no progress as all sides jockey for position. >> i would say we're nowhere. >> speaker john boehner issued a downer offer yesterday. >> the white house quickly dismissed it. >> the speaker's proposal is out of balance. >> it is more of the same. >> it is not me being positive. it is the math. >> magic math. >> magic beans and fairy dust. >> president obama did win the election. >> me thinks somebody made him king. >> no. i don't think that's right. >> he doesn't see where he stands in the universe. >> i would say we're nowhere. >> are we that
of the election. issues like entitlement reform and new revenue, but he's going to have to do something big. there's been a four-year course of he doesn't get along with either party, doesn't make the kind of effort you're talking about. i don't think there's any doubt he's going to, particularly john boehner, find some human interconnection moment that says we're doing this. and that's when the tough part starts. because once there's a leader deal, getting it through the house, whatever the terms of it is going to be super hard. >> i was with a group of businessmen last night, and their question was, why don't the people in washington do what we do when there's an important decision that comes up? why don't they get into a room and hammer it out, get some food, drinks, whether it's a couple days, get them helicopters, and go to camp david. you get in a room together -- >> the president -- the president doesn't like doing that. he's not comfortable doing that. and jon meacham, that is not the opinion of a pundit, that is a matter of historical record for his first four years. is it not? >> that's
Search Results 0 to 49 of about 92 (some duplicates have been removed)

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